I had an idea for this sociological experiment. My goal is to engage in a more detailed and honest dialogue with friends and strangers and to learn more about myself and others.
Tuesday, May 17, 2011
Today's Question
Religion is good for people? Serious, well thought out answers please? This is a heavy question and often violently argued, somehow antithetically to its often stated purpose, so use your inside, rational voices.
I'll preface this with saying, I'm not right and neither are you.
I do think religion is good. Although the cause of war and pillages, it is something that keeps lots of people in line...especially the stupid.
I myself am spiritual, but not religious. I think all the religions are the same and have the same basic stories, but through that game of "telephone" (remember we played that as a kid) stories and words get lost and jumbled. You start out with a simple statement and by the time it gets around the circle you have this ridiculous statement.
What would the world be like without religion? I don't think that would ever exists. Descartes is great to cite, here. You think of it, therefore, it's existence is imperative. Now what if I believed in unicorns? I can distinctly see it in my head, therefore it exists right? It does. And you can't tell me what is or is not in my head.
Now is this good for me? Are believing in delusions good for daily life? For some, it's necessary. People need something to hold on to, they need to feel that they are a part of something. I think religion does this. What about just plain philosophies, like the civil rights movement. Those rights are based on what many believe to be "God-given rights". More educated people would say "Natural rights". Regardless of what you call them, I think that in most cases, it's God or the thought thereof, that brings people together more than it tears people apart.
I'd bet that most people, regardless of their beliefs, talk to God right before they die.
It depends on the person. I have seen some who substitute their addictions with religion. Its great that they have a reason to be clean, but now they are zealots instead of junkies.
It depends on the person. When people listen to another person's interpretation of a religious concept, they are convinced instead of curious. Religious leaders have been viewed as authoritative so people have a hard time questioning...or they are just too lazy to find their own interpretations.
It depends on the person. Religion can give people excuses to do the most wonderful and the most horrific things. Wars, for thousands of years, have been waged in the name of some god. I will always be appalled at the number of people who have been tortured, burned, maimed, in-prisoned, and executed because of religion. on the other hand, I also know of small countries that survive because missionaries provide them food and medicine.
It depends on the person. I just believe in goodness for goodness sake....the golden rule. I don't need a leader, book, ritual, saints, heaven, or hell to believe that....but some people do.
It is hard to come down on whether it is a good or bad thing in and of itself. The teachings of the major religions can be distilled down to positive concepts like love, fairness, trust, compassion, etc. In this sense, it is a good thing. However, the scary part is when these concepts are operationalized, via various religious structures. I think everyone would agree about this on some level. It is this functional sense that is subject to normative judgement, and I am just not sure that religion has been on the "right side of history" more often than not.
I can appreciate the pragmatic aspects of religion, but they do not convince me of its accuracy. We need to believe that our life has meaning. I think atheists believe this as much as theists. For some people religion fulfills this role, for others, their children do, or their pets do, or their job does, etc. If you live a more enriched happy life by being religious, have at it. I just don't want any part of it, and I don't want it foist upon me unwillingly. The same goes for smoking, Pauly Shore movies (except BioDome) and Cat Fancy magazine.
Okay, very well. Apparently religion inspires more opinions than work hour reduction and pro-rata reduced pay. I accept that.
With respect to Diskokitty’s preface, she is right, I’m not right and neither is anyone, at least not yet anyway. Bill Hicks has a great line about how it would be a big ol’ hoot when God descends and tells the Shinto-ists that they were right the whole time and every one else is going to hell. Hicks said he’d laugh his ass off. I probably would too. Maybe one day we’ll find out. Bertrand Russell has a good point as to what all the agnostics could say when the ‘end time’ comes to pass. Just tell God that he didn’t give us enough evidence. Seems reasonable to me.
Moving on. The religious imperative fed to the masses was a method of control from the beginning of organized religion. If you act a fool and kill somebody or steal someone’s goats or arrows or cabbages, God will smote you by some fatal means and you will be forced into a great abyss for the remainder of time, gnashed and whipped until the flesh is removed from bone. Not a pleasant way to round out eternity. In either case, some fella came up with the brilliant idea of organized religion to keep people in line, Divine Law, as it were. In fact, a truly mesmerizing concept to me is the antiquities wing of the Vatican. This is a blatant confession by the Church of how they adopted early pagan gods and goddesses to make conversion to Christianity more palatable. Thereby admitting that religion is basically made up on the spot by the group with the biggest sticks and has co-opted older religions in order to tempt others to their fundamental way of thought. For example, what the hell does a Rabbit, a symbol of Pagan fertility, have anything to do with Easter or Jesus’ rising from the dead as a true miracle indicative that he was the true Son of Christ…anyway, my apologies for the digression.
As we were discussing, only complete dim wits and other societal cast-offs need the idea of an all powerful being to rain hell upon them in order to keep them from doing the immoral, i.e., beating the hell out of people, murdering and raping, stealing things that don’t belong to them. I don’t need Jesus to tell me those things are bad, that is what good parenting and the self-awareness of being shit on by other scum bags in the school of hard knocks eventually imparts to otherwise immature human beings, myself, at one time, included.
What is problematic about the ‘giving of sins’ to your God is, as Christopher Hitchens describes, is that it gives Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and every other follower of rigid, dogmatic principles free license to do bad things so long as they later repent and give those sins to God. Basically, it allows people to act like an asshole because their teachings tell them that all will be good. No, it doesn’t work like that, or shouldn’t anyway. If you do bad things, bad things should and usual do happen to you. Call it religion, Karma, spirituality, probably being in bad places with bad people doing bad things, but call it something. Tori27phile alluded to the previous discussion. In my opinion, religion has inspired more hatred than anything, and frankly, I could do without all the negativity. The point is this, if religion gives you hope and the motivation to get through really bad times in your life, the loss of loved ones, disaster, destruction, death, etc. it is a fantastic tool. If religion gives you license to act like a jerk, you are probably just deluding yourself and, if you believe in hell, well then, you can go to it.
So, with all of that in mind, here are some final thoughts. Though I absolutely, unequivocally haven’t any idea of the existence of God(s), I have seen both terrible and beautiful things. What I do know is that I am extremely educated and fairly well read and I still don’t know much about anything. So, it would appear to me that many people that think they know everything about all things, likely know very little about a very small subset of things.
On top of all that, these same people find it laughable that the Vikings prayed to the wind and fire and so strange that Romans worshipped Pluto, Jupiter, Diana, and a host of others. That being the case, what will future humans, humans sharing their biology with computers, living healthy lives well into their 100s, and born into an age of new, scientific reason think of religion notions of the early 21st century? Will they laugh at our Gods and the destruction done in their names or will they simply worship their own Gods, machine gods or science? I cannot tell you whether religion is good or bad. All that I can tell you is that based on this discussion, it is not the people that don’t know about the existence of a higher power that seem to be causing the problems, only those that are absolute in their beliefs. All very interesting questions and comments, thanks for sharing.
I give organized religion a big thumbs down. I am all for spirituality, and believing that we are somehow connected to something greater than our individual selves. But when it comes to religion there are certain things I cannot stomach. I was raised Catholic so I can only speak from that experience. The church tries to interfere too much in the personal lives of its followers, banning the use of contraceptives, forbidding abortion, forbidding same sex marriage. I think any half-wit parent can teach their kid that stealing and murder are bad things, without the use of a larger entity that persecutes individuals for who they love and accuses them of choosing to be homosexual (I know I am showing a slight bias here). Who the hell would "choose" a lifestyle that could lead to such harsh consequences for some. I digress. I think the time for organized religion is coming to a pass. It prevents us from evolving as a society and as an individual. I hope there will be a time when we can all live as one consciousness, casting away the chains of these religions that divide us.
I'll preface this with saying, I'm not right and neither are you.
ReplyDeleteI do think religion is good. Although the cause of war and pillages, it is something that keeps lots of people in line...especially the stupid.
I myself am spiritual, but not religious. I think all the religions are the same and have the same basic stories, but through that game of "telephone" (remember we played that as a kid) stories and words get lost and jumbled. You start out with a simple statement and by the time it gets around the circle you have this ridiculous statement.
What would the world be like without religion? I don't think that would ever exists. Descartes is great to cite, here. You think of it, therefore, it's existence is imperative. Now what if I believed in unicorns? I can distinctly see it in my head, therefore it exists right? It does. And you can't tell me what is or is not in my head.
Now is this good for me? Are believing in delusions good for daily life? For some, it's necessary. People need something to hold on to, they need to feel that they are a part of something. I think religion does this. What about just plain philosophies, like the civil rights movement. Those rights are based on what many believe to be "God-given rights". More educated people would say "Natural rights". Regardless of what you call them, I think that in most cases, it's God or the thought thereof, that brings people together more than it tears people apart.
I'd bet that most people, regardless of their beliefs, talk to God right before they die.
It depends on the person. I have seen some who substitute their addictions with religion. Its great that they have a reason to be clean, but now they are zealots instead of junkies.
ReplyDeleteIt depends on the person. When people listen to another person's interpretation of a religious concept, they are convinced instead of curious. Religious leaders have been viewed as authoritative so people have a hard time questioning...or they are just too lazy to find their own interpretations.
It depends on the person. Religion can give people excuses to do the most wonderful and the most horrific things. Wars, for thousands of years, have been waged in the name of some god. I will always be appalled at the number of people who have been tortured, burned, maimed, in-prisoned, and executed because of religion. on the other hand, I also know of small countries that survive because missionaries provide them food and medicine.
It depends on the person. I just believe in goodness for goodness sake....the golden rule. I don't need a leader, book, ritual, saints, heaven, or hell to believe that....but some people do.
It is hard to come down on whether it is a good or bad thing in and of itself. The teachings of the major religions can be distilled down to positive concepts like love, fairness, trust, compassion, etc. In this sense, it is a good thing. However, the scary part is when these concepts are operationalized, via various religious structures. I think everyone would agree about this on some level. It is this functional sense that is subject to normative judgement, and I am just not sure that religion has been on the "right side of history" more often than not.
ReplyDeleteI can appreciate the pragmatic aspects of religion, but they do not convince me of its accuracy. We need to believe that our life has meaning. I think atheists believe this as much as theists. For some people religion fulfills this role, for others, their children do, or their pets do, or their job does, etc. If you live a more enriched happy life by being religious, have at it. I just don't want any part of it, and I don't want it foist upon me unwillingly. The same goes for smoking, Pauly Shore movies (except BioDome) and Cat Fancy magazine.
Okay, very well. Apparently religion inspires more opinions than work hour reduction and pro-rata reduced pay. I accept that.
ReplyDeleteWith respect to Diskokitty’s preface, she is right, I’m not right and neither is anyone, at least not yet anyway. Bill Hicks has a great line about how it would be a big ol’ hoot when God descends and tells the Shinto-ists that they were right the whole time and every one else is going to hell. Hicks said he’d laugh his ass off. I probably would too. Maybe one day we’ll find out. Bertrand Russell has a good point as to what all the agnostics could say when the ‘end time’ comes to pass. Just tell God that he didn’t give us enough evidence. Seems reasonable to me.
Moving on. The religious imperative fed to the masses was a method of control from the beginning of organized religion. If you act a fool and kill somebody or steal someone’s goats or arrows or cabbages, God will smote you by some fatal means and you will be forced into a great abyss for the remainder of time, gnashed and whipped until the flesh is removed from bone. Not a pleasant way to round out eternity. In either case, some fella came up with the brilliant idea of organized religion to keep people in line, Divine Law, as it were. In fact, a truly mesmerizing concept to me is the antiquities wing of the Vatican. This is a blatant confession by the Church of how they adopted early pagan gods and goddesses to make conversion to Christianity more palatable. Thereby admitting that religion is basically made up on the spot by the group with the biggest sticks and has co-opted older religions in order to tempt others to their fundamental way of thought. For example, what the hell does a Rabbit, a symbol of Pagan fertility, have anything to do with Easter or Jesus’ rising from the dead as a true miracle indicative that he was the true Son of Christ…anyway, my apologies for the digression.
As we were discussing, only complete dim wits and other societal cast-offs need the idea of an all powerful being to rain hell upon them in order to keep them from doing the immoral, i.e., beating the hell out of people, murdering and raping, stealing things that don’t belong to them. I don’t need Jesus to tell me those things are bad, that is what good parenting and the self-awareness of being shit on by other scum bags in the school of hard knocks eventually imparts to otherwise immature human beings, myself, at one time, included.
What is problematic about the ‘giving of sins’ to your God is, as Christopher Hitchens describes, is that it gives Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and every other follower of rigid, dogmatic principles free license to do bad things so long as they later repent and give those sins to God. Basically, it allows people to act like an asshole because their teachings tell them that all will be good. No, it doesn’t work like that, or shouldn’t anyway. If you do bad things, bad things should and usual do happen to you. Call it religion, Karma, spirituality, probably being in bad places with bad people doing bad things, but call it something. Tori27phile alluded to the previous discussion. In my opinion, religion has inspired more hatred than anything, and frankly, I could do without all the negativity. The point is this, if religion gives you hope and the motivation to get through really bad times in your life, the loss of loved ones, disaster, destruction, death, etc. it is a fantastic tool. If religion gives you license to act like a jerk, you are probably just deluding yourself and, if you believe in hell, well then, you can go to it.
ReplyDeleteSo, with all of that in mind, here are some final thoughts. Though I absolutely, unequivocally haven’t any idea of the existence of God(s), I have seen both terrible and beautiful things. What I do know is that I am extremely educated and fairly well read and I still don’t know much about anything. So, it would appear to me that many people that think they know everything about all things, likely know very little about a very small subset of things.
On top of all that, these same people find it laughable that the Vikings prayed to the wind and fire and so strange that Romans worshipped Pluto, Jupiter, Diana, and a host of others. That being the case, what will future humans, humans sharing their biology with computers, living healthy lives well into their 100s, and born into an age of new, scientific reason think of religion notions of the early 21st century? Will they laugh at our Gods and the destruction done in their names or will they simply worship their own Gods, machine gods or science? I cannot tell you whether religion is good or bad. All that I can tell you is that based on this discussion, it is not the people that don’t know about the existence of a higher power that seem to be causing the problems, only those that are absolute in their beliefs. All very interesting questions and comments, thanks for sharing.
I give organized religion a big thumbs down. I am all for spirituality, and believing that we are somehow connected to something greater than our individual selves. But when it comes to religion there are certain things I cannot stomach. I was raised Catholic so I can only speak from that experience. The church tries to interfere too much in the personal lives of its followers, banning the use of contraceptives, forbidding abortion, forbidding same sex marriage. I think any half-wit parent can teach their kid that stealing and murder are bad things, without the use of a larger entity that persecutes individuals for who they love and accuses them of choosing to be homosexual (I know I am showing a slight bias here). Who the hell would "choose" a lifestyle that could lead to such harsh consequences for some. I digress. I think the time for organized religion is coming to a pass. It prevents us from evolving as a society and as an individual. I hope there will be a time when we can all live as one consciousness, casting away the chains of these religions that divide us.
ReplyDelete